May 28, 2008 - 7:30 PM



Chairman Ian Murray called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.


Planning Clerk Linda McCabe called the roll.  Chairman Ian Murray – present, Paul Griffen – present, Robert Park – present, Laurie Griffen – absent/arrived at 8:58 pm., Patrick Hanehan – absent, Robert McConnell – present, Jennifer Koval – present, and Alternate Joseph Lewandowski – present.


Also attending: Town Engineer Kenneth Martin, Patricia Jolie-Zotzman, Jim Vianna, Vince Hill, Robert & Deborah Stickle, Dennis & Juliana Brida, Gil Van Guilder and interested parties.  Sign-in sheet is on file in the Planning Clerk’s office.


Due to the absence of two Board Members, Chairman Ian Murray elevated Alternate Joseph Lewandowski to full Board Member status.


Approval of Minutes: A motion was made by Robert Park, and seconded by Paul Griffen to accept the minutes of the April 23, 2008 meeting as written.  Chairman Ian Murray – aye, Robert Park – aye, Laurie Griffen – absent, Patrick Hanehan – absent, Paul Griffen – aye, Robert McConnell – aye, Jennifer Koval – aye, Alternate Joseph Lewandowski – aye.   Carried 6 - 0.


Order of Business:


Sketch Plan


Patricia Jolie-Zotzman

826 Rt. 29

Saratoga Springs, NY  12866

S/B/L 155-1-44 Rural Residential


Applicant proposes to subdivide the property, separating the veterinary hospital and storage buildings from the apartment building.  This is located at the corner of Rt. 29 and Bryant’s Bridge Rd.


Patricia Jolie-Zotzman appeared before the Board.  She explained the history of the property and how she would like to separate the veterinary clinic from the apartments.  Chairman Ian Murray stated that the Planning Board will have to deny it and send her to the Zoning Board of Appeals because doing this will create two substandard lots.  He is also worried about parking for both of the lots if divided, access and potential traffic accidents.  The Applicant said the use is staying the same, the access is staying the same and there have been no accidents in that area of Rt. 29 since she’s been there, though she knows the potential for accidents; nothing would change.  Chairman Ian Murray explained that if the Applicant ever sells, it could create traffic impacts and this is a serious concern for him.  Robert Park noted the lot is small for zoning and Chairman Ian Murray said you cannot configure it any differently due to the apartments.  The Applicant explained she divided it this way to keep the driveway as is for the apartments.  Chairman Ian Murray asked if the Applicant considered moving the clinic into the apartment building; and if it was feasible.  The Applicant responded it was possible, but right now it is not feasible.  Paul Griffin noted that financial woes are not a Board concern.  Chairman Ian Murray explained that since the Applicant didn’t own it prior to 1981 this does not fall under being “grandfathered”.

Robert Park made a motion, seconded by Robert McConnell, to deny the application for subdivision due to the creation of nonconforming lots.  Carried 6 – 0.  Denied

The Applicant asked Chairman Ian Murray if she is to go before the Zoning Board of Appeals and Chairman Ian Murray said yes.


Kevin Van Buren                                                                       Estate of Thomas W. Reed

5 Samspring Dr.                                                                         P.O. Box 248

Saratoga Springs, NY  12866                                                   Victory Mills, NY  12884

S/B/L 168-3-9 Conservancy


Applicant proposes to subdivide 2.2+/- acres from a 5.9+/- acre parcel, located at 771 Rt. 29 next to the county sandpit, for a single-family residence. 


Jim Vianna appeared before the Board on behalf of the Applicant.  He explained that his clients have a 5.9 acre parcel next to the county sandpit.  The lot is a funny shape; with a tail which is the access point off Rt. 29.  Mr. Vianna explained that when the county started mining sand there he believes that the pit was part of the property.  The county had some surveyors come in and cut it up and the reason that funny tail is there is that it was the only access point on Rt. 29. The existing driveway is right on the crest of the hill with excellent site distance east and west.  Mr. Vianna believes the county, when running the pit, used to use the same spot coming in and out.   The Applicants would like to separate out 2.2 acres around the existing A-frame house and build themselves a house down below, which he showed on the map, overlooking Fish Creek.  Based on the site distance and the historical access to the road, Mr. Vianna thinks this lot would be suitable for a common driveway.  He explained to the Board that the lots off to the right of this property use the fire lane for access, but he’d like to come in off the existing Rt. 29 access point.  He then stated he has yet to do the deep-hole test and the perc test, and explained where the septic field would be.  He explained the topography of the property; lot 1 is fairly level, then it drops off and levels out again down on lot 2 where the new house is proposed to be built and then stair-steps down to the creek.  He also said he had walked the property back in Jan. Chairman Ian Murray questioned if it’s capable of having the driveway put in as proposed and Mr. Vianna responded yes, that’s why it is way over toward the side; it’s a nice steady grade, well within regulations.  Chairman Ian Murray questioned the site distance, being certain there is 300’ on either side and Mr. Vianna stated it is more than that.  Mr. Vianna added they’d only be sharing 60-70 feet of the driveway; only at the entrance.  Chairman Ian Murray stated he is not crazy about the lot line, but it meets frontage so this is not a flag lot.  He also told Mr. Vianna he needs some soil engineering on it and reminded him the town has a 50’ buffer for streams.  Mr. Vianna said he will put a defined building envelope on it.  Town Engineer Ken Martin wanted him to remember the DOH separation distances from the stream to the septic of 100’ and then the need to work the distances of well to sanitary on both lots.  Mr. Vianna responded the 100’ is DOH and the town is 50’.  Chairman Ian Murray stated 50’ clearing buffer on streams and creeks.  Mr. Vianna stated it’s all sand and will perc nicely; if it’s tight in there he will have a site plan done up.  He also invited the Board to walk the property.  Chairman Ian Murray said we will schedule a Public Hearing for next month and that Mr. Vianna should come back with soil engineering and everything else they discussed and we’ll go from there.  Mr. Vianna stated it may be in July depending if he can get everything done in time for next month.  Returning


Walter J. Taras

173 Co. Rt. 69

Schuylerville, NY  12871

S/B/L 182-2-29 Rural


Applicant proposes to subdivide a 5 acre lot (Lot 2C) and a 1.88 acre lot (Lot 2D) from the 53.15 acre parcel (Lot 2A).  Applicant will retain ownership of the remaining 46.29 parcel (Lot 2A).  This is located near the intersection of Hathaway Rd. and Co. Rt. 69.

Jim Vianna appeared before the Board on behalf of the Applicant.  He gave a brief background on Phase I, which had been separated off in 2004 and created Lot 2B, which is where the Applicant is currently building his house.  His sister’s lot on the corner was cut out in 2002.  He would now like to create Lot 2C, the 5 acre lot, for his brother-in-law for a residential dwelling. Lot 2D, the 1.88 acre lot, would be for sale (no intended buyer at this point), and it has it’s own frontage on Hathaway Rd. which is why the configuration is the way it is. These are two zoning compliant lots, though no perc tests or septic designs have been done yet.  Mr. Vianna thinks this subdivision leaves the Applicant with a little over 46 acres. He stated the soils are heavy there; that’s the clay site, and will require some engineering on the septics.  Chairman Ian Murray said the one question he has is if this constitutes a realty subdivision by DOH standards, and this is something he is having our Town Attorney look into.  Mr. Vianna asked if this is because of the acreage; there’s only one lot of the 5 lots to exceed 5 acres; he believes it is 4 lots or more.  Town Engineer Ken Martin said it is five lots, 5 acres, in a five year period.  Mr. Vianna responded if you add them up, 2B won’t count because it’s supposedly being kept by the Applicant, so he doesn’t believe they fall under that jurisdiction.  Chairman Ian Murray and Town Engineer Ken Martin stated that this, in itself, doesn’t constitute a realty subdivision, but if you add the Casey Rd. lots in, they are concerned it may.  Mr. Vianna stated the Board needs to do what it needs to do and whatever they need to do they will do.  Chairman Ian Murray stated it is heavy soil out there so they need to have soil engineering done.  He also stated they are compliant lots, and that he will check with the Town Attorney and will get back to Mr. Vianna.  Mr. Vianna stated he will hand off to Environmental Design Partnership (EDP) once he hears from Chairman Ian Murray and have them perc it and EDP will go from there.  Returning


Special Use Permit Pre-Submission Conference


Robert Stickle                                                                        Matthew Ernst, owner

27 Myers Lane                                                                      1164 Rt. 29

Schuylerville, NY  12871                                                       Schuylerville, NY  12871

S/B/L 157-1-49.2 Rural Residential


Applicant is seeking a Special Use Permit to open a retail candy and craft shop, named Schuyler Sweets, in an existing building, previously a tattoo parlor, at 1164 Rt. 29, Schuylerville, NY.


Mr. Stickle appeared before the Board seeking a permit to open a candy and craft store located at 1164 Rt. 29.  He explained that he and his wife have been doing this as a side job for 5 years and due to the positive responses they have consistently received, they have decided to open their own business.  He also told the Board all the changes and improvements they have been making to the building, including the installation of a chlorine filtration system to meet Agriculture and Markets standards.  Chairman Ian Murray responded how nice the building looks.  Chairman Ian Murray questioned if they need DOH inspection prior to opening and the Applicant responded Agriculture and Markets, since they will be making the candy on site.   The Applicant also stated their hours of operation will be Monday - Friday 1 p.m. – 6 p.m., Saturday 10 a.m. – 5 p.m. and closed on Sunday.  Chairman Ian Murray stated we will schedule a Public Hearing for June and move forward.  Returning


Vincent Hill

1008 Rt. 29

Saratoga Springs, NY  12866

S/B/L 156-1-38.31 Rural Residential


Applicant proposes to open an awning and deck accessory retail business out of his garage, located at 1008 Rt. 29.


Vincent Hill appeared before the Board and explained how his Mother had a garage sale shop out of the garage in the past, and he would like to open a deck accessory and awning business.  Chairman Ian Murray asked what his hours of operation will be and the Applicant answered it will mainly run from April – October, 9 a.m. – 6 p.m. seven days a week.  He told them he will put up a stockade fence between the house and garage, he has ample parking for 7 – 8 vehicles at this time, the driveway is quite long with good visibility on both sides.  The top part of the driveway is paved; the entire driveway is paved though the Applicant is going to remove that and have crushed stone put in. Chairman Ian Murray stated that the parking spaces are undersized and they need to be increased a bit, and the Applicant said he will get that done. Chairman Ian Murray questioned storm water with the proposal of 5500 sq. ft. of crushed stone going in and Town Engineer Ken Martin responded he doesn’t think they have to worry about it.  He added they will need some erosion control but aside from that you shouldn’t need storm water.  Chairman Ian Murray asked about signage and lighting and the Applicant responded there’s a sign already there that he’ll use and no lighting.  Robert Park questioned if he will be using tractor trailers for delivery and the Applicant said no, UPS.  Paul Griffen questioned what people will come to him for, to see a display and the Applicant said yes, he will have a display in front.  He will take the garage door down and replace it with French doors and an awning and will have a display set up with furniture and accessories; his friend makes the furniture off site. He may bring items outside on good days, but storage will always be inside.  Chairman Ian Murray stated that the Board has required past Special Use Permit applicants on Rt. 29, to provide some landscaping to improve the appearance and for visual screening.   He suggested that the Applicant plant some trees on either side of the driveway midway between the road and the house for some screening.  The Board discussed prior Special Use Permits and how they made them renewable and more than likely this will go the same way.  Chairman Ian Murray stated we will schedule a Public Hearing for June.  Returning


Dennis J. and Juliane Brida

2160 Rowley Rd.

Ballston Spa, NY  12020

S/B/L 156-1-10 Rural Residential


Applicant proposes to convert the Roadhouse 29 supper club into a delicatessen.


Mr. Brida appeared before the Board.  He explained that he would like to change the bar of the old supper club into a counter. Due to the beer license requirements, the booths and tables will be removed since there will be no drinking or eating allowed in the building.  They may put a bench outside. The hours of operation will be 7 a.m. – 6 p.m. Chairman Ian Murray questioned if they plan to do catering and the Applicant responded in their past stores they have done catering, but they are not looking to do that now; though they aren’t ruling that out.  The catering would not be done at that building, it would be done off premise.  Chairman Ian Murray liked the improvements the Applicant has planned.  The Applicant stated they are making all changes to make the store work.  Chairman Ian Murray explained to the Applicant that he would like to see him remove some of the gravel that the past occupant put there; it looks too industrial.  He would like to see some green space added to give it a more appealing look and to have it fit in better with the Town.  It would certainly enhance the property and give it a more friendly appearance there.  If the Applicant did put a bench outside, the green space would lend a more country appeal.  The Applicant thinks the Board will like it better when he removes the split rail fence and completes his renovations.  Chairman Ian Murray would like to see the stockade fence go too.  He questioned if the small “dock” on the east side of the building is for deliveries. The Applicant said there are two landings; one to the kitchen and one to a prep area.  He does not envision a lot of deliveries to those doors.  Maybe some vegetables to the kitchen, but most everything will come through the front door. Chairman Ian Murray stated it looks like someone had reconfigured the septic there, there’s a pump tank and some other stuff buried there and he doesn’t see how that conceivably can work there.  The Applicant agreed and doesn’t see how any vehicles can drive over that.  Chairman Ian Murray stated that is what he means.  The Applicant said maybe a handcart will be the easiest way, but at this point he thinks through the front door.  He’ll put in a new entryway, a commercial size door, and a ramp.  He will have the soda and beer delivered to the basement by handcart around the back of the building. Chairman Ian Murray questioned if the Applicant has the old sketch plan from the seller or if he has anything with their septic design on it. The Applicant showed Chairman Ian Murray the map he had with a detail of the septic system.  Chairman Ian Murray noted the tank is in the front parking lot.  The seller came forward to explain what existed when they had purchased Lippy’s.  They had Gary Robinson do special engineering; the area covered with rubble is where the new septic system lies. There is no asphalt strip there, it was all handcart delivery.  That whole thing is now a new septic tank, a new grease trap septic tank, and a secondary grease trap that Gary Robinson recommended we put on. We then have an Elgin system, which is a very high-density system because it is a rather limited site, in where all the stone is as a barrier so people wouldn’t drive over it.  Chairman Ian Murray thanked him for explaining.  He asked the Applicant to get a copy of that information from the seller and bring it to the Public Hearing, which we will hold next month.  Returning


Public Hearing and Lot-Line Adjustment


Arthur Kemmet

183 River Rd.

Schuylerville, NY  12871

S/B/L 209.13-1-17 Conservancy


Returning Applicant proposes to subdivide a 1.84+/- acre lot, with frontage on Wilbur Rd., from the 22.91+/- acre portion of this property, with frontage on NYS Rt. 4.  The property is situated between NYS Rt. 4 and River Rd.  The applicant will retain the remaining 20.39+/- acre parcel. 


The proposed action also includes two lot-line adjustments with adjoining parcels of land on River Rd.  One proposed lot-line adjustment involves lands of Mr. Neubeck.  The proposal is to transfer 15,785+/- sq. ft. of the applicant’s lands to the lands of Mr. Neubeck.  The transfer will make the total area of the Neubeck property 29,713+/- sq. ft.


The second proposed lot-line adjustment involves a transfer of 10,767+/- sq. ft. of the applicant’s parcel to other Kemmet lands that are adjacent to the applicant’s parcel.  The transfer will make the total area of the other Kemmet lands 29,500+/- sq. ft.  Gil VanGuilder provided Clerk Linda McCabe with proof of neighbor notifications. Gil VanGuilder appeared before the Board on behalf of this Applicant.  He explained they took the Planning Board’s comments concerning the access off of Wilbur Rd. along the Bouchey’s property.  This was not a desirable entrance to the property in the Board’s eyes.  Access to Lot 2 is now from River Rd. and will have all frontage on NYS Rt. 4, but actual access will be off River Rd. via an easement.  The driveway will be constructed 16’ wide and will be able to support a 50,000 pound fire truck.  They wanted to come straight in with the driveway, but not wanting to impact the wetlands, they made the best effort possible to avoid the 50’ buffer.  Detailed plans have been submitted for the septic system design.  Town Engineer Ken Martin had mentioned the area is subject to the 100 year flood plain, but according to DOH standards, the tile field of the septic system has to be above the 10 year flood elevation for this area.  Gil VanGuilder said they got that elevation from FEMA and the systems have been designed so that enough material will be placed in the areas of the septic systems so they will be above the 10 year flood plain.  The finished forms of the houses have been designed to be above the 100 year flood plain.  These wells and septics have adequate separation from the neighbor’s wells for the septic system design.  They’ve retained the lot off of Wilbur Rd., utilizing the existing driveway culvert that is there so there will be no new curb cuts or driveways off of Wilbur Rd. The lot-line adjustment basically adds to the Nuebeck’s land and adds to other lands of Kemmet, which is on a different deed and was not included in the prior proposal due to it being a separate deed.  That lot was not going to be modified but we are now making it larger and more conforming to zoning, though it still is not a completely conforming lot, but it is better. 


Proof of Notice having been furnished by newspaper on May 16, 2008, Chairman Ian Murray opened the Public Hearing at 8:43p.m.  Chairman Ian Murray asked anyone with questions or concerns to please stand up, state your name. 


Bob Meidenbauer, 187 River Rd. questioned the size of lot 2 and wanted to know the distance of the utility corridor and conservation area from the existing lots on River Rd.  Gil VanGuilder responded Lot 2 is 20.39 acres and the distance of the utility corridor averages 100’ from the edge of the rear lot lines of the existing houses on River Rd.


Chairman Ian Murray closed the Public Hearing at 8:47p.m.


Chairman Ian Murray read the letter from the Saratoga County Planning Board indicating no significant County wide or intercommunity impact.  NYS DOH will need to review and approve septic designs for both lots, and they will need to stamp and sign the final subdivision plan mylar for filing with the county clerk’s office.  Non-conventional raised septic systems are not the preferred method for treating waste water.  Due to the length of driveway proposed for lot 2, and heavy wet soils on the site, a map note should be provided on the subdivision map that the driveway will hold a 50,000 pound, 30’ long vehicle as determined by a NYS licensed engineer with facilities for turning around to be available within 100’ of any structure.  Chairman Ian Murray stated that the Board had already established that at past meetings with the Applicant and Gil VanGuilder agreed. Chairman Ian Murray asked if there were any other questions.  Robert Park commented that he appreciates that the Applicant listened to the Board and this is a far better solution compared to the original plan.  Town Engineer Ken Martin stated he would like a pull-off on the long driveway and a turn-around.

Paul Griffen read the short form EAF, line by line, which was completed by the Board.  Chairman Ian Murray made a motion, seconded by Robert Park, to accept the documents as presented, to declare the SEQR review complete and to make a Negative Declaration. 


Chairman Ian Murray – aye, Robert Park – aye, Patrick Hanehan – absent, Paul Griffen – aye, Robert McConnell – aye, Laurie Griffen – absent, Jennifer Koval – aye, Joseph Lewandowski – aye.  Carried 6- 0 Approved


Chairman Ian Murray made a motion, seconded by Robert Park, to approve the subdivision with ownership of driveway on River Rd., stamp the drawings No Further Subdivision on Lot 2, driveway pull off and turn-around on Lot 2 with Town Engineer Ken Martin’s review and must go to DOH for approval.  Chairman Ian Murray – aye, Robert Park – aye, Patrick Hanehan – absent, Paul Griffen – aye, Robert McConnell – aye, Jennifer Koval – aye, Laurie Griffen –absent, Joseph Lewandowski – aye.

Carried 6 – 0 Granted




Fish Creek Rod & Gun Club                                     David & Betty Larmon

Rt. 32                                                                                      162 Burgoyne Rd.

P.O. Box 94                                                                            Schuylerville, NY  12871

Victory Mills, NY  12884                                                       S/B/L 156-3-44 Rural            


Jim Vianna appeared before the Board on behalf of the Fish Creek Rod & Gun Club.   Mr. Vianna stated unfortunately the map he turned in weeks ago does not reflect the latest and greatest idea but it’s useful enough to give the Board the general idea.  As you know this has to do with the Dave and Betty Larmon property.  I believe we were here a year ago to do a simple lot-line adjustment to create this parcel and things didn’t work as we initially thought.  The latest version of this is that we would like to create a two-lot subdivision of the lands of Dave and Betty Larmon.  Basically the parcel has to be on a separate lot for the bank.  Chairman Ian Murray stated we cannot create a land locked parcel and even though they had an easement on there it doesn’t constitute a compliant lot.  Jim Vianna stated he’s sorry he doesn’t have something more current, but he now has to do a survey for a two-lot subdivision and has to survey the 39 acres.  The plan now is to make this a flag lot.  Whether we make the pole of the flag along the easterly bounds or the vicinity of the westerly bounds, it’s still up in the air.  In the past, the access for the use of the farmland came from the Drumm’s and Rhule’s.  There’s going to be no access over the part of the flag that touches the road. The moderate easement for Saratoga Plan will be through the Gun Club side on Rt. 32, so we’re not going to be constructing a driveway here on Burgoyne Rd. The pole part of the flag strictly will be for zoning compliance. 

 Board Member Laurie Griffin arrived at 8:58 p.m.

 Lawrence Howard, Attorney for Saratoga Plan, stated Saratoga Plan will have a conservation easement over this separate parcel that we are hopefully creating and the Rod & Gun Club will own.  The bank has no say over the limits on the conservation easement and flag lot that we’re going to create with no access. The bank is going to loan money on the Gun Club property. They will have no problem with an access easement through these woods for Saratoga Plan.  The bank just does not want this property merged with the other; they want nothing to do with property with an easement on it.  It has no interest in the Larmon property whatsoever.  Chairman Ian Murray stated our law on flag lots needs rewriting, it’s kind of gray. It was ideally set up to protect road frontage and farm fields and things like that. Paul Griffin added that with a flag lot you have to give something up, a negotiation of something, to improve rather than to solve someone’s financial problems.  Flag lots are to preserve land, not solve a financial problem.  Chairman Ian Murray stated that if they want to proceed with this, he will talk with Town Attorney William Reynolds and they can communicate again.  Jim Vianna asked the Board to waive the perc test and soil engineering. Chairman Ian Murray asked him about the Club’s land-locked parcel and Jim Vianna said technically this has nothing to do with that parcel of land so it’s off the board.  He added the Club doesn’t seem to have a problem with it but he has an issue with it.  Chairman Ian Murray questioned if he meant leaving it landlocked or combining it and Jim Vianna said he has to talk with his clients.  Conversation continued with the Board on easements and the landlocked parcels.  Mr. Vianna stated it has to be surveyed so he didn’t know when they’d be back. 


A motion to adjourn was made at 9:20 p.m. by Paul Griffin, and seconded by Robert Park. Chairman Ian Murray – aye, Robert Park – aye, Laurie Griffin – aye, Paul Griffen – aye, Jennifer Koval – aye, Patrick Hanehan – absent, Robert McConnell – aye, Joseph Lewandowski – aye.

Carried 7 – 0


Old Business: None


New Business: None


The next meeting will be held June 25, 2008     


Meeting adjourned       


Respectfully submitted,


Linda McCabe

Planning Clerk


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